Hi Geoff! I know you from Bulwark comments. I'm not a big podcast person, but I suspect the Bulwark podcasts have a bigger audience than the written articles. I think they also do some TikTok / Snapchat videos and YouTube videos that get a bigger reach. At least my kids have seen them. I was also surprised by the low subscription number. For such a low number, they seem to me to be getting attention.
But I also feel like all I do is preach to the choir because MAGA isn't willing to listen. I can't even convince my family that Trump is a criminal, and I know them pretty well. And Trump is obviously a criminal, so what could I possibly say to such a willful rejection of reality? We're all struggling with how to defeat fascism. A little hopium isn't terrible as long as it doesn't warp my sense of reality, but then these days how would I know if that happened?
Kate, I remember you from the early days on TB, and the conversations. It was very good and exciting. I am also as exasperates as you are on why so many people put their blinders on and ignore the danger that Trump offers.
I do watch some of the pods on YT, and the Next Level is great, I have noticed that the "must listen" that I felt when Charlie was hosting was much higher. I like Tim, but he isn't as crisp as Sykes was. I know Charlie left when the stress of a daily newsletter and daily pod became a lot for one of his senior status (age), but I suspect that his audience now that he publishes twice a week on The Atlantic is far better reach. But the problem is the same. The people that need to be reached aren't engaging.
MAGA is what the right has become, and no wishcasting is going to get that reversed. Furthermore, the demand on the fractious Democrats whose coalition is tenuous at best to be perfect in messaging and electoral performance is unrealistic. Even if Trump shuffles off this mortal coil this afternoon (that would be one way to prevent his conviction) the Republicans are so thoroughly captured by MAGA that it isn't going to unravel any time soon. And because of our constitutional strictures, there is little chance for a 3 party coalition ever happening here (in law at least, it seems like the house behaves this way not to get anything accomplished at least when the R's hold it).
Yeah, I am depressed, and if I were Sarah listening to the focus groups, I would probably have cirrhosis of the liver and possibly be on deaths door due to alcoholism. But that is the population, whether we like it or not, and it isn't going to get better anytime soon.
I miss Charlie telling me I'm not crazy, that's for sure. I think I'm more optimistic than most because I have kids in my 20s. On the other hand, the Trump madness is all they know of how adults behave in the political arena.
In the end, there are no magic words that change people's minds. They have to get sick of corruption and incivility and hate themselves - I can't do it for them.
Is your animus toward the Bulwark personal? It’s really starting to sound personal… cuz, you know I’m a Bulwark-stan. 😁
When likeminded people come together, there are always opportunities to create positive change, provided that’s the inclination of those involved, of course. And while they don’t have *calls for reader engagement*, neither do folks like The Lincoln Project whom everyone thinks is *doing the work*. Aside from the daily Substack newsletters, they’ve also got 4 top 50 politics podcasts, with one (The Bulwark Podcast) routinely placing in the top 3. Yes, this isn’t The HOPIUM Chronicles nor Robert Hubell’s daily noted but not every anti-Donnie outlet fills the same role and if they did, people would complain about that too.
An interesting thesis, and I am sure it is partially personal.
But, while they rail on the right wing echo chamber, bemoan the Fox News, OANN, and whatever else is trending in the MAGA sphere, I would argue that they have created their own echo chamber, touting their "straight talk" and commitment to the "truth".
And I am convinced they believe that.
Yet, when you dive into the comments, and look at the people who comment regularly, I suspect it tilts left of center by a minimum of 60:40, and probably more. Some of the threads are reminiscent of Rush Limbaugh in the early to mid 90's, with their conformity. And when I was a subscriber, and I dared mention that if Biden were to "drop out" like all the conventional wisdom of their combined 200 years of Right Wing political campaign knowledge (I will admit that I made that up, but between Kristol/Charen/and the young'uns it is probably not too far) and I dared mention that they wouldn't get their preferred Josh Shapiro, or even a Gretchen Whitmer, but likely Gavin Newsom, and how he would be crushed in a national election, I got reply after reply from left of center people from states that went for Tump by +20 telling me they lived in such and such a state and that Newsom would be in play. Puhlease.
The Lincoln Project is similar, but I suspect they probably have more people in their eco-system, donating more money to the cause.
If TB had 2.6M members, and 300K paying people, then I would consider them more effective. But a year ago they had about 230K (that is what they said on their gatekeeping page when I stopped my sub) and growth of 37K in close to a year when we have an end-times epic battle for the soul of America, it tells me that it is at its maximum effectiveness, and not really growing.
And in that article, they seemed to tease that Adam Kinzinger would be joining their permanent staff, and sure, he bucked Trump in the second impeachment, was participatory in the January 6th committee, lending it an air of legitimacy, but he just opted to not fight and lose his primary like Cheney did, so I have a lot less sympathy for him.
At least the Lincoln Project is putting out advertisements that get under Trump's skin in a bigly way.
If JVL and Sarah spun out, and had a $50 a year sub for the Triad, the Secret, and the Focus groups I would gladly subscribe and revel in the darkness balanced with Sarah's sunny optimism, but I have no use for Mona, Bill, and Will's nose holding and their eternal hope that they can roll back the clock 15 years and all this unpleasantness would go poof.
Last point. The doom and gloom over how Biden's support for Israel over the 10/7 attack, and how that is causing the young progressives might mean another Trump administration, yet the one thing Biden could do to get them back in the fold would be to shun Israel. They seem to want it both ways. Cater to the Gen Z cohort, and to not abandon Israel. I agree that Biden is doing the right thing, and that it might cause Biden to lose. Sure, I can argue that the college students shouldn't be so cavalier and let Trump regain power, because, Trump would probably ship some tactical Nukes to Bibi to turn Gaza into a glass covered parking lot for Kushner and friends to build luxury seaside resorts on.
Sorry, that got long and rant-y. I am glad you are here and engage. I do appreciate it. I do not have a Polo-Sci degree, I am not a lawyer, I studied physics and I work at a product manager in the Tech world, so what do I know.
I don’t read the people I don’t like or with whom I will never agree (A.B., Mona, Bill, Andrew - usually), but Tim, JVL, Sarah, Joe, Marc and others are great. And I think the reason the Bulwark as an entity doesn’t do the whole community actions thing is because Sarah has her whole side gig in that arena and it pairs up well with her work as editor of the Bulwark.
Do the LP ads get under Donnie’s skin? Or does Rick just like to think they do? I often wonder how much of their shtick is a grift and have felt that way since they came on the scene. Don’t get me wrong, I still pay for Rick’s SS, I just don’t see what getting under Donnie’s skin has to do with turning out voters. He’s gonna short circuit and keep saying stupid shit no matter how much LP needles him, so, what’s their purpose other than complaining?
There is that, but I do think there is a correlation between the ads and the diarrhea that spews forth from the cheeto dusted shitgibbon on his Truth Social posts. And that makes me smile.
FWIW, I have also halted my sub to Chris Cilizza's stack. I can get the same take from my NYT and WaPo subs.
I’ve ditched a bunch of repetitive stuff lately too. I’ll always hang onto my humor stuff (Wonkette, Tiedrich, Fucking News, etc), but I’ve gotten rid of a bunch of straight news lately. It’s all too depressing. The Dispatch finally pushed me away when they changed their comments section and I struggled with them for a week to try and figure out why I couldn’t post. Finally asked him to completely delete my account from their system … and they’re still sending me emails - which I can no longer read because my sub is no longer active. I started reporting them as spam. Maybe they’ll get the point that I’m done hate reading them and that their takes generally suck.
The YT drop of The Dark Side (usually Tuesday afternoons) with JVL and AB is actually pretty good.
I also love the Tim's Takes. A better vehicle that his "Not my Party" snapchats.
Tim is just not as good of an interviewer as Sykes was. It is a shame that he moved on. I understand why, and I suspect that his increased presence on MSNBC and his regular articles on The Atlantic get much wider audience.
But the people that need to see/hear/read/digest/internalize this messaging will never get it from their bubbles. I just fear that we have our own bubble.
Ironically, I first joined TB in the run up to the 2020 election, and I thought it was getting me out of my media bubble, but it was just a mostly coincident Venn diagram.
Lastly, when I joined TB, it was a 501c3 non-profit, and I *could* have deducted the $100 from my taxes, but about December 2021, they dropped that (I equated it to the launch of their merch store). But from the article, they are "close" to being cash flow positive. That is surprising that they are spending more than they bring in. Not a great business.
Really depressing is how fucking huge Matt Taibbi and Barry Weiss' stacks are. They are literally cleaning millions of dollars a year for the dreck they publish. TB doesn't seem successful in that contrast (and that is its own level of fucked up)
I think the monetization thing is why they’ve been pushing so hard on YT. Tim is def their biggest draw. Not sure if that’s tied more directly to his MSNBC appearances or his Twitter persona, but it does give them a lot more clicks. I am impressed he’s been able to maintain the ranking of TB Podcast as I agree with you, he’s not a great interviewer. I will check out the JVL/AB pod. I’ve been reluctant thus far as he can go pretty dark when there isn’t a Sarah to pull him out or a Tim to crack a joke and, from my past exposure to her work. , AB does not fill either of those 2 roles.
Looks like this cost me three subscribers already this morning...
(ETA: Got one back...)
Hi Geoff! I know you from Bulwark comments. I'm not a big podcast person, but I suspect the Bulwark podcasts have a bigger audience than the written articles. I think they also do some TikTok / Snapchat videos and YouTube videos that get a bigger reach. At least my kids have seen them. I was also surprised by the low subscription number. For such a low number, they seem to me to be getting attention.
But I also feel like all I do is preach to the choir because MAGA isn't willing to listen. I can't even convince my family that Trump is a criminal, and I know them pretty well. And Trump is obviously a criminal, so what could I possibly say to such a willful rejection of reality? We're all struggling with how to defeat fascism. A little hopium isn't terrible as long as it doesn't warp my sense of reality, but then these days how would I know if that happened?
Kate, I remember you from the early days on TB, and the conversations. It was very good and exciting. I am also as exasperates as you are on why so many people put their blinders on and ignore the danger that Trump offers.
I do watch some of the pods on YT, and the Next Level is great, I have noticed that the "must listen" that I felt when Charlie was hosting was much higher. I like Tim, but he isn't as crisp as Sykes was. I know Charlie left when the stress of a daily newsletter and daily pod became a lot for one of his senior status (age), but I suspect that his audience now that he publishes twice a week on The Atlantic is far better reach. But the problem is the same. The people that need to be reached aren't engaging.
MAGA is what the right has become, and no wishcasting is going to get that reversed. Furthermore, the demand on the fractious Democrats whose coalition is tenuous at best to be perfect in messaging and electoral performance is unrealistic. Even if Trump shuffles off this mortal coil this afternoon (that would be one way to prevent his conviction) the Republicans are so thoroughly captured by MAGA that it isn't going to unravel any time soon. And because of our constitutional strictures, there is little chance for a 3 party coalition ever happening here (in law at least, it seems like the house behaves this way not to get anything accomplished at least when the R's hold it).
Yeah, I am depressed, and if I were Sarah listening to the focus groups, I would probably have cirrhosis of the liver and possibly be on deaths door due to alcoholism. But that is the population, whether we like it or not, and it isn't going to get better anytime soon.
I miss Charlie telling me I'm not crazy, that's for sure. I think I'm more optimistic than most because I have kids in my 20s. On the other hand, the Trump madness is all they know of how adults behave in the political arena.
In the end, there are no magic words that change people's minds. They have to get sick of corruption and incivility and hate themselves - I can't do it for them.
Here's hoping the 34 convictions on felony charges start to move some of them.
(I remember you from TB too, and miss the mostly excellent discussions in the comments there.)
Is your animus toward the Bulwark personal? It’s really starting to sound personal… cuz, you know I’m a Bulwark-stan. 😁
When likeminded people come together, there are always opportunities to create positive change, provided that’s the inclination of those involved, of course. And while they don’t have *calls for reader engagement*, neither do folks like The Lincoln Project whom everyone thinks is *doing the work*. Aside from the daily Substack newsletters, they’ve also got 4 top 50 politics podcasts, with one (The Bulwark Podcast) routinely placing in the top 3. Yes, this isn’t The HOPIUM Chronicles nor Robert Hubell’s daily noted but not every anti-Donnie outlet fills the same role and if they did, people would complain about that too.
An interesting thesis, and I am sure it is partially personal.
But, while they rail on the right wing echo chamber, bemoan the Fox News, OANN, and whatever else is trending in the MAGA sphere, I would argue that they have created their own echo chamber, touting their "straight talk" and commitment to the "truth".
And I am convinced they believe that.
Yet, when you dive into the comments, and look at the people who comment regularly, I suspect it tilts left of center by a minimum of 60:40, and probably more. Some of the threads are reminiscent of Rush Limbaugh in the early to mid 90's, with their conformity. And when I was a subscriber, and I dared mention that if Biden were to "drop out" like all the conventional wisdom of their combined 200 years of Right Wing political campaign knowledge (I will admit that I made that up, but between Kristol/Charen/and the young'uns it is probably not too far) and I dared mention that they wouldn't get their preferred Josh Shapiro, or even a Gretchen Whitmer, but likely Gavin Newsom, and how he would be crushed in a national election, I got reply after reply from left of center people from states that went for Tump by +20 telling me they lived in such and such a state and that Newsom would be in play. Puhlease.
The Lincoln Project is similar, but I suspect they probably have more people in their eco-system, donating more money to the cause.
If TB had 2.6M members, and 300K paying people, then I would consider them more effective. But a year ago they had about 230K (that is what they said on their gatekeeping page when I stopped my sub) and growth of 37K in close to a year when we have an end-times epic battle for the soul of America, it tells me that it is at its maximum effectiveness, and not really growing.
And in that article, they seemed to tease that Adam Kinzinger would be joining their permanent staff, and sure, he bucked Trump in the second impeachment, was participatory in the January 6th committee, lending it an air of legitimacy, but he just opted to not fight and lose his primary like Cheney did, so I have a lot less sympathy for him.
At least the Lincoln Project is putting out advertisements that get under Trump's skin in a bigly way.
If JVL and Sarah spun out, and had a $50 a year sub for the Triad, the Secret, and the Focus groups I would gladly subscribe and revel in the darkness balanced with Sarah's sunny optimism, but I have no use for Mona, Bill, and Will's nose holding and their eternal hope that they can roll back the clock 15 years and all this unpleasantness would go poof.
Last point. The doom and gloom over how Biden's support for Israel over the 10/7 attack, and how that is causing the young progressives might mean another Trump administration, yet the one thing Biden could do to get them back in the fold would be to shun Israel. They seem to want it both ways. Cater to the Gen Z cohort, and to not abandon Israel. I agree that Biden is doing the right thing, and that it might cause Biden to lose. Sure, I can argue that the college students shouldn't be so cavalier and let Trump regain power, because, Trump would probably ship some tactical Nukes to Bibi to turn Gaza into a glass covered parking lot for Kushner and friends to build luxury seaside resorts on.
Sorry, that got long and rant-y. I am glad you are here and engage. I do appreciate it. I do not have a Polo-Sci degree, I am not a lawyer, I studied physics and I work at a product manager in the Tech world, so what do I know.
I don’t read the people I don’t like or with whom I will never agree (A.B., Mona, Bill, Andrew - usually), but Tim, JVL, Sarah, Joe, Marc and others are great. And I think the reason the Bulwark as an entity doesn’t do the whole community actions thing is because Sarah has her whole side gig in that arena and it pairs up well with her work as editor of the Bulwark.
Do the LP ads get under Donnie’s skin? Or does Rick just like to think they do? I often wonder how much of their shtick is a grift and have felt that way since they came on the scene. Don’t get me wrong, I still pay for Rick’s SS, I just don’t see what getting under Donnie’s skin has to do with turning out voters. He’s gonna short circuit and keep saying stupid shit no matter how much LP needles him, so, what’s their purpose other than complaining?
There is that, but I do think there is a correlation between the ads and the diarrhea that spews forth from the cheeto dusted shitgibbon on his Truth Social posts. And that makes me smile.
FWIW, I have also halted my sub to Chris Cilizza's stack. I can get the same take from my NYT and WaPo subs.
It is just so depressing.
I’ve ditched a bunch of repetitive stuff lately too. I’ll always hang onto my humor stuff (Wonkette, Tiedrich, Fucking News, etc), but I’ve gotten rid of a bunch of straight news lately. It’s all too depressing. The Dispatch finally pushed me away when they changed their comments section and I struggled with them for a week to try and figure out why I couldn’t post. Finally asked him to completely delete my account from their system … and they’re still sending me emails - which I can no longer read because my sub is no longer active. I started reporting them as spam. Maybe they’ll get the point that I’m done hate reading them and that their takes generally suck.
The YT drop of The Dark Side (usually Tuesday afternoons) with JVL and AB is actually pretty good.
I also love the Tim's Takes. A better vehicle that his "Not my Party" snapchats.
Tim is just not as good of an interviewer as Sykes was. It is a shame that he moved on. I understand why, and I suspect that his increased presence on MSNBC and his regular articles on The Atlantic get much wider audience.
But the people that need to see/hear/read/digest/internalize this messaging will never get it from their bubbles. I just fear that we have our own bubble.
Ironically, I first joined TB in the run up to the 2020 election, and I thought it was getting me out of my media bubble, but it was just a mostly coincident Venn diagram.
Lastly, when I joined TB, it was a 501c3 non-profit, and I *could* have deducted the $100 from my taxes, but about December 2021, they dropped that (I equated it to the launch of their merch store). But from the article, they are "close" to being cash flow positive. That is surprising that they are spending more than they bring in. Not a great business.
Really depressing is how fucking huge Matt Taibbi and Barry Weiss' stacks are. They are literally cleaning millions of dollars a year for the dreck they publish. TB doesn't seem successful in that contrast (and that is its own level of fucked up)
I think the monetization thing is why they’ve been pushing so hard on YT. Tim is def their biggest draw. Not sure if that’s tied more directly to his MSNBC appearances or his Twitter persona, but it does give them a lot more clicks. I am impressed he’s been able to maintain the ranking of TB Podcast as I agree with you, he’s not a great interviewer. I will check out the JVL/AB pod. I’ve been reluctant thus far as he can go pretty dark when there isn’t a Sarah to pull him out or a Tim to crack a joke and, from my past exposure to her work. , AB does not fill either of those 2 roles.
Agreed Geoff! Seems like a distinction with little difference. Chest pounding to forget about the angst.